Neo-independent Baptist 5
Note: Today’s post is by Emanuel Rodriguez, 45, a 1999 graduate of Beaufort Bible
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Hebrews 13:8 “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
I am not against new ideas, new technology, and modern amenities in churches. I do not think that all songs written after 1899 come from the bellies of hell. I do believe that there are some “standards”, perhaps many, that have no biblical basis and are therefore man-made and unnecessary. There are some things that I most likely agree with within the neo-independent Baptist movement. I’m all for improvement, so long as said “improvement” doesn’t violate biblical principles.
This neo-independent Baptist movement is supposed to be an effort to revitalize the church. I appreciate that because God knows how much I also despise the dead, passionless, unenthusiastic formalism in churches today. There’s nothing spiritual about being boring and stagnant. Since Jesus is “the resurrection and the life” and the true church is that of the living God, I too must loathe deadness.
However, God’s admonition to the dying church of Sardis in Revelation 3:2 was to strengthen the things that remain, not ditch those things and replace them with newer and trendier stuff. For this reason, I must disagree with the direction that the neo-independent Baptist crowd is going in their efforts to revitalize churches. I believe that their emphasis is in the wrong places.
The problem is that they are searching so hard for new ideas in their efforts to revitalize churches when what we really need is to return to what made the church powerful to begin with. While they spend thousands and thousands of dollars on Idea Days “to tell, or to hear some new thing” (Acts 17:21), the answers for revival and revitalization are right there staring them in the face within the pages of Holy Writ.
God’s ideas have already been given. They are forever settled in heaven. They have also been preserved for us in writing. They have been available for centuries. Plus, His “ideas” are free! …or at least, whatever it cost you to purchase a Bible. You can get one for 99 cents at the local Dollar General. We don’t need to travel or spend money to discover His ideas in some special conference in a new “woke” and more hip Baptist church somewhere. We already have the answers.
The Lord’s ideas are timeless, tried and true! They are proven. They are eternal, which make Gods precepts always relevant. They work. They worked for the disciples in Acts as they turned the world upside down. They worked for the primitive churches who soldiered on throughout the Dark Ages and multiplied themselves at rapid rates despite fierce persecutions. They worked for the Protestant Reformers who had their eyes opened and dared to challenge and defy the hellish juggernaut that is the Catholic church. They worked for the saints of the first and second Great Awakenings as true revival and biblical Christianity swept the eastern seaboard of the United States.
WHAT REVITALIZES A CHURCH
Habakkuk 3:6 “…his ways are everlasting.”
God’s ideas will work TODAY and all the way up to the rapture of the church. I know this not only because the Bible said so, but because I’ve seen it myself. As a missionary who has had the privilege to minister throughout Latin America since 1999, I’ve seen true revival. I’ve seen churches revitalized by God. I have had the undeserved honor of experiencing it.
I know what it is like to take on struggling and dying churches. I’ve done it multiple times.
I took one church on the mission field that had just a handful of people who were just barely hanging on. The church had all but Ichabod written on it. We took the church and its handful of tired, discouraged people. We worked extremely hard to resurrect this church from the dead. We knocked on every door of every community in this town. Yet, no results. So what did we do? We went back to door number one, and repeated the same process. Afterwards, still no fruit.
What did we do? We did it again, and again, and again, and so on, and so forth. We decided to not give up until God did something because we believed He could.
We constantly got on our faces before God and begged Him to do miracles. A miracle was the only way this church was ever going to get off the ground. There were many times I walked through the woods and down to the brook by my house, with a machete in one hand, and a Bible in the other. There, I would pour out my heart to God and beg him to breathe new life into this dying church. Many times I’d go to the church building during the day and walk up and down the aisles, begging God out loud to send revival.
We kept preaching God’s word. We preached it in homes of folks that would let us hold services in their living room. We preached in the plazas in front of the Catholic church. We preached on the basketball courts. We preached in the ghettos. We preached in front of bars and supermarkets. We preached, and preached, and preached.
Eventually, we had our first convert. A little old lady. She couldn’t do much physically but she turned out to become a mighty prayer warrior. Now it wasn’t just us praying. It was us plus a little old lady. We kept toiling on, with blood, sweat, and tears, believing that the same God that sent great revivals in the past could do the same today.
What happened? One by one souls started getting saved. Then God saved this one guy. That’s when revival broke loose.
This guy was the town drunk. Not any old town drunk. I’m talking about THE town drunk, the worst one. He was also a crack, cocaine, and heroin addict. He did it all. He came close to dying from drug overdose over 20 times. He was the guy that everyone saw on the street corner, sometimes drunk, other times laying in vomit, other times with a needle in his veins, other times begging for money.
During his fourth stint in prison, the prison doctor advised him that he was incurably sick and was going to die in that prison cell. There was no hope for him, so said the doctor. The town drunk begged God for mercy and made a promise that if He would let him live, he would give the rest of his life to the Lord.
He started reading the Bible in his cell. Through reading the Bible, the town drunk found out that salvation was by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Upon this discovery, He cried out to the Lord to save him. God began working a miracle of divine transformation in his life.
(I must pause. I cannot refrain from being overwhelmed with emotion as I take this trip down memory lane. Tears are rolling down my face as I write this.)
Later he was released from prison. To make a long story short, God led him to our church. I’ll never forget the precious moment of sitting in his living room as he shared with me this story that I am sharing with you now. With tears rolling down his face, he looked me in the eyes and said, “Preacher, I need to keep my promise to God. He kept His end of the deal. Now I must keep mine. Can you teach you me to serve the Lord?” (I must pause again to wipe away the cascade of tears that prohibit me from seeing my computer screen clearly as I write this. These are blessed memories.)
I took that man under my wing and trained him. Today he is the pastor of the church.
This church has found life. Now folks are going to a church that at one time they scoffed at. A church that at one time could barely keep the doors open is thriving as the former town drunk thunders the word of God every Sunday morning, Sunday evening, and Wednesday night. This miracle has caught the attention of the whole town. Even the town mayor, who is a lost Catholic, said publicly on Facebook that no one could deny that this was a supernatural work of God.
What’s the point? The point is that it is not new ideas, better technology, different lighting, modern trends, or a catchier beat from a cheap rendition of the latest song by Casting Crowns that we need. We need more of God! We need more of His power.
I’ve seen revival. This is just one story. I have more. I just don’t have the time nor space in this article to tell them all. I’ve seen revitalization accomplished without anything new, modern, hip, or trendy. On the mission field, I see it done over and over again with the timeless tools of the unadulterated word of God, fervent prayer, diligent evangelism, Holy Ghost conviction, constant repentance, old-fashioned worship, and red hot, Spirit-filled, Christ-exalting, Scripture saturated, passionate, bold, and uncompromising PREACHING.
THE NEO-INDEPENDENT BAPTIST MOVEMENT IS NOT A RETURN TO WHAT MADE THE IFB CHURCH POWERFUL TO BEGIN WITH
Exodus 32:8 “They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.”
I disagree with the notion that these new, more modern and trendier things will help to revitalize the church. Now, the neo-independent
While they claim to be on a mission to return to what originally made the IFB church so powerful back in the day, they fail to recognize what activated such power. They have an emphasis in utilizing modern day tools and technology, social media, a trendier wardrobe, contemporary music, a more upbeat atmosphere, and a departure from almost anything that resembles “the old paths” in order to reach today’s generation.
The problem is that none of this new stuff produces the power of God. These things only appeal to the flesh. An over-emphasis in things that only appeal to the flesh will result with a congregation full of fleshly, carnal, and superficial Christians who will now mistake worldliness for godliness. This stuff may produce quantity. What you won’t have is quality, the kind that God produces.
Whether they realize it or not, they are trying to revitalize the church with worldly, modern means rather than with the power of the Holy Spirit. Where does real Holy Ghost power come from? It certainly doesn’t come from dimmer lights (or brighter ones), TV screens, more upbeat music, less convictions (standards), etc.
THE NEO-INDEPENDENT BAPTIST MOVEMENT IS NOT NECESSARY
Luke 1:15 “…he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.”
Matthew 3:4 “And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.”
I see things through the lens of a missionary serving in a third world country. I’m dealing with people who may never sit in a carpeted, air-conditioned building for church. Dimmed lights? Colored LED’s? These folks are happy to have light at all! We’ve had church with no lights!
Modern amenities? We’re used to having church where it’s sometimes over 100’ F in the building. Many times when I get done preaching in the summer time my clothes are entirely soaked in sweat. On the other hand, we’ve had church when it was so freezing cold folks brought blankets to church to keep themselves warm.
On the mission field, I’ve preached in churches with dirt floors, tin roofs, walls made of wooden pallets, and benches that were nothing but tree stumps with a couple of 2 by 4s going across. The two churches we are planting now started out under mango trees in the front yard of families who by U.S. standards would be considered well below the poverty line.
On the mission field, we many times will not have all these modern amenities that the neo-independent Baptists are so concerned about. But I tell you what we do have. We’ve experienced the power of God! We’ve seen lives changed. We’ve seen marriages and homes repaired. We’ve seen sinners broken under the convicting power of God. We’ve seen Christians brought to repentance and thus restored in their relationships with the Lord. We’ve seen saints develop a more intense hunger for God and His word.
LET’S GET BACK TO WHAT WORKS
1 Corinthians 2:1-4 “And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power”
1 Thessalonians 1:5 “For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost…”
The problem with this movement is that it is putting the emphasis in the wrong things. While I am not against good ideas, it’s not new ideas that we are in dire need of. God gave us a wonderful Book that already explains to us how to have revival. If there is something new that we need, it’s a “new look in the old Book”!
In the book of Acts, you don’t find the disciples of Christ holding conferences to gather new ideas on how to reach the world with the modern trends of their time being considered. What you find is them simply preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ as they were filled with the Holy Spirit.
Go ahead and have your special conferences. There’s nothing wrong with getting together and having a good time. But you are mistaken if you think that trendier ideas are what will revitalize the church. You want to return to what made the IFB movement powerful before? How about we return to what made the primitive church and the first disciples turn the world upside down?
Acts 4:31-33 “And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.”
Preachers used to pray for hours a day. Today preachers struggle to pray for 20 minutes a day, yet they wonder why they have a hard time revitalizing their churches. Instead of finding newer ideas, perhaps we need to fix our prayer lives. The disciples fervently prayed and were filled with the Holy Ghost. That’s what we need more than modern trends. Let’s get filled with Holy Ghost power again!
You know what happened every time a man was Spirit-filled in the Bible? I dare you to
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| Preaching of St. Paul Sebastiano Ricci, c 1700 |
1 Corinthians 1:18 “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”
CONCLUSION
Understand that there is a balance to all this. There is nothing wrong with using modern means of technology or even social media to advance the ministry. There is nothing diabolical about LED lighting. Nothing in the Bible says that the whole armor of God includes a suit and tie (though I am a suit and a tie in the pulpit guy). I’m not even personally against using a large TV screen in the sanctuary to announce the upcoming pot-luck dinner and other events and activities as opposed to posting a sheet of paper on a bulletin board in the vestibule. Frankly, I don’t care how you promote the pot-luck dinner.
In regards to the revitalization of churches, however, we need less of the world and more of God. The more we emphasize God’s methods, the more He will fill us with His Spirit, just like He did to His disciples when they placed the emphasis where God told them to place it back in Mark 16:15. Instead of trying to figure new things out, if we’d just return to the clear old instructions of God’s word, we’d find the methods already laid out in Scripture to be the best way, yielding the best results possible, the kind that is God-sent instead of man-produced.
2 Corinthians 4:5-7 “For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.”
Prov1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
ReplyDeleteThank you, Emanuel, for your encouraging and challenging message.
I have to say I expected more substance from this series as it developed. I have several questions about the content in this week, specifically.
ReplyDeleteRegarding Idea Day:
- Have you ever attended one, or spoken to anyone that attended and had good things to say about it?
-You do know that at this one, they had an actual worship service, and prayed over 10 church planters, while raising $60,000 for them as well, right?
-I've only been to one Idea Day, but I can assure you LED lights is not on the agenda. The fact that was even brought up makes me want to throw up.
-I doubt very seriously if attire in the pulpit been a subject of a serious discussion. If it has, it was probably in jest.
-Contemporary music? That's a whole discussion in and of itself. First, you'll have to define what you mean by contemporary.
-What exactly is the problem with an "upbeat atmosphere"?
-You'll need to define what the "old paths" are as well. Unfortunately, it's become a popular phrase to mask the desire to "do things the way they've always been done".
I'll have to agree with you that Holy Ghost power doesn't come from screens, upbeat music, or less convictions (standards). But i'll have to add that it doesn't come from the LACK of screens, upbeat music, or more standards, either. That was failed to be mentioned in the blog, and if you're going to be fair in your criticism (which is what most of these blogs have turned out to be), that should be mentioned.
"I'll have to agree with you that Holy Ghost power doesn't come from screens, upbeat music, or less convictions (standards). But i'll have to add that it doesn't come from the LACK of screens, upbeat music, or more standards, either. That was failed to be mentioned in the blog, and if you're going to be fair in your criticism (which is what most of these blogs have turned out to be), that should be mentioned."
DeleteTo the contrary, my sense is that it was addressed. When your ministry becomes a pursuit of change, of being on the leading edge of attractional methods then - by Manny's contention and my understanding - you are abandoning the power of God.
That's the entire point.
The clear point/insinuation of the whole post is that if you use all the modern things then you probably aren't seeking the power of God, don't preach the Bible strongly, and you must not be praying much. Which means that you are implying that Josh Teis specifically (since this series is about him) does not pray much, preach the Bible strongly, or seek God's power. If you have ever listened to any of his sermons or especially the night service from the recent Idea Day, then you would know how untrue that assumption is. At Idea Day last week, the whole theme of the service was "not by might or by power, but by His Spirit"
DeleteWe are 5 posts in and still nothing substantial to do with Josh Teis or those you associate with him.
Josh makes a really important point. I hope these judgmental statements do not continue in this series. You can no more judge Josh Teis's walk with God then you can Sam Davison's or Paul Chappell's or whoever your guy is. It's like saying that when I knock doors I'm only relying on the tract and not the power of God. Terrible argument.
Delete" It's like saying that when I knock doors I'm only relying on the tract and not the power of God. Terrible argument."
DeleteJay, I agree that would be a terrible argument. I disagree that is the argument he is making.
If the basic substance what I am doing/becoming/emphasizing in my ministry is getting better at making tracts, at making them attractive, at getting people to notice them, at marketing them to certain demographics, at adjusting them in order to be appealing, and at why the rest of the IFB world needs to do the same or die then it could well be said that I have left behind the power of God.
That's the argument.
Respectfully disagree.
Delete"Now, the neo-independent Baptist guys may deny that they are depending upon these things to breathe new life into the church, but from the outside looking in, this is exactly the message their movement displays because of the emphasis that they place in these things ... Whether they realize it or not, they are trying to revitalize the church with worldly, modern means rather than with the power of the Holy Spirit."
Do we really know the heart of these men? Of course not. The writer says it himself in essence "from the outside" "it appears", then goes on to assert that they are relying on their methods as opposed to the power of the Holy Spirit. Are there some neos relying on the strength of their good looks and social media prowess? I'm sure there are. Are there some old paths guys relying on their bus promotions and their big days? Of course. But it's absolutely wrong to make a blanket statement about either group.
FTR, I'm the UNKNOWN just above that "Respectfully disagreed."
DeleteI have found the blog and previous contributors to be very helpful and Pastor Rodriquez points were well said. I sensed a desire on Pastor Rodriquez"s part to be open for change but not at the expense of the watering down the Word of God. Its somewhat unfair for Pastor Rodriquez to be criticized openly yet the Feb 4th commenter listed himself as Unknown.
ReplyDeleteThat my one of my dilemma in the post. Does newer methods 100% equals water down scripture. Go ahead and talk about some newer methods can maybe be a slippery slope. I may or may not agree with that. But that could be an argument. Talk about relying on methods is not relying on the holy spirit.
DeleteBUT DO NOT SAY new methods = water-down scripture. Or new methods = NOT seeking the Holy spirits power.
Yes, I know you are going say he did not say that. BUT, you all are righting with the presupposition that the God has confirmed this in your hearts.
AMEN! Thank you for the testimony that you shared about that former town drunk that is now the Pastor of an Independent Fundamental Baptist church in the mission field. GLORY TO GOD!
ReplyDeleteAMEN to the article as a whole and especially to:
"I’ve seen revitalization accomplished without anything new, modern, hip, or trendy. On the mission field, I see it done over and over again with the timeless tools of the unadulterated word of God, fervent prayer, diligent evangelism, Holy Ghost conviction, constant repentance, old-fashioned worship, and red hot, Spirit-filled, Christ-exalting, Scripture saturated, passionate, bold, and uncompromising PREACHING."
More anecdotal evidence. More standards and rules that can't be truly defined or measured. Frustrating, to be honest. I love, sing and lead the hymns. But the power of God isn't any more in the hymn book then it is in the LED screens. I wear a suit and tie, but you absolutely can NOT make a judgement about a bearded, skinny jeans wearing hipster's time at the throne room of God. There is so much we ALL do that you won't find the early church doing in the book of Acts. This is just a guess, but it could very well be that the saints of the Great Awakening you mention would loathe even the oldest of the "old paths" style today. Millenials on the fence aren't going to be encouraged to take a more conservative path with these kinds of arguments. Give specifics from scripture. Define worldliness. Where is the line into OVER-emphasis? When is it wrong to use technology? Exactly how much percussion is too much? How old is old enough on the old paths?
ReplyDeleteExactly!!! It’s all subjective.
ReplyDeleteProverbs 24: 21-22
Delete21 My son, fear thou the LORD and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change:
22 For their calamity shall rise suddenly; and who knoweth the ruin of them both?
Herein lies the weakness of the over focus on individual words and sentences in the Bible combined with the reliance on a translation using old English. The context of "meddle not with them that are given to change" is "My son, fear thou the LORD and the king:" IE don't meddle with those given change from fearing the Lord and the king. In the time it was written that would have been how that was read, but read with modern English glasses you applied this verse where it does not fit. My translation says it in plain English: "My son, fear the Lord and the king, and do not join with those who do otherwise." I love the old King James to death, but I see it misused too often.
DeleteI am honestly dissapointed. I truly wanted some meat in this series to study and debate, but instead so far it has been almost entirely generalizations and assumptions. They are using modern elements so they must be worldly. They're trying new things so they're working without God's power. These are assumptions made based on deeply seated fundamentalist dogma. Honestly I think its such a part of the way ya'll think that you truly believe that you're giving a fair assessment, blind to your own prejudice.
ReplyDeleteI remember a time when I would have watched a video of Josh Ties and seen only how he was dressed, the lighting in the church, and the bible version he was using, and I would have judged him just like you are. I wouldn't have heard what he was saying, the Christ he was proclaiming, or seen the Holy Spirit in him because I would have been blinded by my own prejudices. Praise God I no longer live and think that way.
"We’ve experienced the power of God! We’ve seen lives changed. We’ve seen marriages and homes repaired. We’ve seen sinners broken under the convicting power of God. We’ve seen Christians brought to repentance and thus restored in their relationships with the Lord. We’ve seen saints develop a more intense hunger for God and His word."
These words resonate with me, because I've seen the same thing, in a modern church. Your story of the town drunk and drug addict getting saved and transformed mirrors half a dozen men I know at church. Because just as you say its not the methods that matter, its God's power, and that power is at work in many churches you don't agree with. Is that so hard for ya'll to accept?
This honestly was the most frustrating article to me. Up to this point I could respect what was said, even agree with some of it. But to say that they "lack the power of God" is just ignorance, and it makes me angry. To make a statement like that should require some personal exposure. I've been to many many IFB churches, some were powerful, and some were cold and dead. I'll never say the IFB "lacks the power of God" because I know that its something that comes from the spirit of the people who make up the individual church, not the methodology, the practice, or the standards. You do not seem to be willing to give other churches the same benefit.
Yes sir, that broad brush always paints an ugly picture. And I'm actually one more inclined to preserving a more conservative approach to ministry (without labeling more progressive brethren enemies). I hope it's not all downhill from here.
DeleteIn essence, here's what we've got:
Part 1 - There's nothing wrong with my grandpa's religion. (I'm okay with that. But I'm sure grandpa would want us to update the flooring in the church and maybe even use blogs or twitter.)
Part 2 - Neos are not the enemy. (Certainly really appreciate the spirit of this post)
Part 3 - This is not new. (Yup. I was shouting "Walk! In the Old Paths!" during the big split of the BBF centering Pacific Coast BBC.)
Part 4 - Don't need cultural relevance. (Another really bad broad brush/blanket statement. Of course we need some form of cultural relevance, lest we become a fringe group.)
Part 5 - Neos lack the power of God. (So there's no way these tech savvy cross fit bros spend time begging God for His power? Wow.)
This writer of this article is completely MISINFORMED about his topic. Thank you for pointing out the absolute need for God's power. You are correct in sharing that we need Him to revitalize our churches. The funny thing is you'll be surprised to know this was the exact content of Thom Rainer's keynote address at Idea Day. Sorry you feel this way looking from the outside. I hope you will spend some time with your "Neo" pastor friends and come to find out we are all serving the same Savior with the same goals. The three best ideas that I took away from Idea Day were these three questions for reflection: 1. How or what is your prayer life? 2. How or what is your evangelistic life? 3. How or what is your family life? This has been the emphasis at all "neo" events I have attended.
ReplyDeleteI dont need you to " correctly" interpret that verse for me. I have the HOLY GHOST to do that. I also have a HOLY BIBLE: the KJV. Not a watered down, corrupted and perverted, and compromised version ( whatever else that may be ). Ill stand on the unadulterated version that has true and perfect authority.
ReplyDeleteI note with interest that you made no effort to say that my interpretation was wrong.
DeleteI'm not debating the Bible version issue right now, I'll save that for the inevitable article that's coming. I do think that it would be odd for the Holy Ghost to reveal to you an interpretation outside the context of a verse. That's more of Pentecostal thing.
According to you? You think far too much of yourself sir and far too less of the HOLY WORD of GOD. Thats evident in your contentious high- mindedness and in your choice Bible version. Either is out of arrogance or ignorance. Regardless, humble yourself and decrease so that the HOLY GHOST will increase and fill you.
DeleteAlso Durandalski, must you be remind that "2 Timothy 3:16 KJV
DeleteAll scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" especially proverbs which have wide applications and arent necessary limited to specific context.
Also Durandalski, must you be remind that "2 Timothy 3:16 KJV
DeleteAll scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" especially proverbs which have wide applications and arent necessary limited to specific context.
I am King James ONLY. But we must be very careful to rightly divide these preciously preserved words of truth. Durandalkski is absolutely correct in his interpretation of the passage. But I do agree with you that scripture (especially the Proverbs) can have a number of applications. But there are limits to that. While you gave no commentary on the passage, we can only assume you are making application on "meddle not with them given to change". But if you choose to apply that to or worship style/methodology, you're creating serious problems for us. I'm assuming you don't use a sackbut or cymbals during your congregational singing time. And maybe safer to assume that your congregation does not live communally. We have changed over the millenia.
DeleteI was not contentious first sir, I gave a challenge based on hermeneutics. Your reaction to my challenge showed evident hostility, and that has continued.
DeleteMr. Diaz, you are attacking me and my faith personally due to a disagreement, which is something fundamentalism has a bad reputation for. I will not call you ignorant, or high minded, or suggest that you need more humility and Holy Spirit because you disagree with me. I know that the IFB is full of dedicated followers of Christ and disagreements need not be hostile among those who serve the same Lord. I only ask for the same courtesy.
The proverbs possibly do have the widest application of any book in the Bible, but they must still be interpreted before being applied, and the same goes for all of scripture. If the application falls outside of the interpretation, can it be claimed to be biblical? I learned my hermeneutics in a respected fundamentalist institution, and I take the business of rightly dividing the Word very seriously.
I think that if there are any statements that appear extreme it would be best to hear the tempering language and tone of the whole article. However, Imanuel's argument is very clear.
ReplyDelete• The power of God is in preaching, not methods.
• To the degree that churches depend on methods, they are operating without the power of God (which can be said of 100% every church>.
• The New Independent Baptists appear to be overemphasizing methods.
Even if someone does not think that New Independent Baptists have gone that far, the warning is still important.
I really don't mean to have a harsh, fighting spirit, but this is ridiculous.
DeleteAt what "degree" of dependence does it officially become powerless? What is the measuring stick? How do you know the neos are "overemphasizing methods"? Does that mean it is okay to emphasize them to some "degree"? When is it "over"?
Let's say your song service lasts 15 minutes. Is it overemphasizing the method of music of their "worship" lasts 30 minutes? What is it lasts 45 minutes but the preaching time is 45 minutes as well?
The truth is the problem the "old paths" have with the "neos" is the methods themselves. These other arguments are hardly definable and certainly not biblically measurable. Go after the CCM biblically. Go after the casual dress biblically. No music theory, history, or missions stories.
I might think that some methods are not as wise as other methods, but it truly is not the methods I was referring to. It was the dependence on methods. If I am depending on my very good method 37%, 59%, or 83.4%, then I am 37%, 59%, or 83.4% powerless. Here is a really funny clip that illustrates how at some point you think someone might be trying to hard: How do you do, fellow kids? I'm pretty sure I would called an Old Paths kind of guy, but my problem actually lies in developing an emotional way of reasoning and the extent to which our methods contribute to that. If we cater to the emotions then people are governed by how they feel and reason becomes irrelevant. After viewing Bro. Josh's Kick Off Service I think it is an example of sending a mixed message: I'm cool, you're cool, we're having fun and feeling good, we're hip, doesn't matter what Bible version you use vs. truth is not subjective (I really liked the message about truth). Emotions are fine, but feelings should not guide our decisions, facts should. Once the facts are in then we can feel free to commit emotionally. We all know that all these things can be measured Biblically according to 1 Hezekiah 3:10 😉. Or...we could just recognize that anything can be used wrongly, some more so than others and we as stewards have to determine how much effort we are going to put into them.
DeleteI am interested in this conversation but I am struggling with the lack of grace and the search for understanding shown in these articles. And the amount of assumptions that are being made. There has been little facts given (you might have some but not given)on how Josh has error from the faith. Only opinions and assumptions derived from your opinions.
ReplyDeleteGo ahead and talk about how some newer methods can may be a slippery slope. I may or may not agree with that. But that could be an argument. Talk about relying on methods is not relying on the holy spirit.
BUT DO NOT SAY new methods = water-down scripture. Or new methods = NOT seeking the Holy spirit's power.
Yes, I know you are going say he did not say that in the post. BUT, you all are righting with the presupposition that God has confirmed this in your hearts.
I trust these posts are written from a heart of love and grace, but you are struggling to show this.
PLEASE show me when Josh corporately fellowshiped with gospel deniers. When Josh watered down his scripture.
I am not saying what you are saying is wrong but you are doing lots of assuming. AND FROM THE OUTSIDE LOOKING IN it looks like you are not happy that Josh is not doing it the same way you would do it.
Does this view make sense or am I just off my rocker.
"PLEASE show me when Josh corporately fellowshiped with gospel deniers."
DeleteWell, I could talk about the rabbi he recently invited to share his platform but I won't. I don't think that decision indicates a trend in his direction. Instead I will ask you this question: Is fellowshipping with those who deny the Gospel the only grievous error an influential pastor can make with his influence?
You’ve mentioned this rabbi several times. In what capacity was he at Josh’s church? The only information I could find is that Josh has a close friendship with a rabbi.
DeleteI don't remember, I'm sorry.
DeleteHe never said that with his post and I am not enough of a psychologist to read his mind beyond what he actually said. 😉
Delete"Is fellowshipping with those who deny the Gospel the only grievous error an influential pastor can make with his influence?"
DeleteOf course not but that seems to be your argument, at least fellowship with someone who may or may not fellowship with gospel denier can lead to a slippery slope of worshiping culture and fallowing the Holy spirit.
"Well, I could talk about the rabbi he recently invited to share his platform but I won't."
ReplyDelete"I don't remember, I'm sorry."
First statement is borderline slanderous then since, in reality, you CAN'T talk about that at all. These types of inflammatory statements have marked "our side" (really hate to put it that way) for too long.
You are right. I apologize. I shouldn't have mentioned it without the ability to back it up.
Delete"Borderline slanderous"? Bro. Jay, I think Bro. Tom spoke a little quickly...but only a little. Please read your and his comments again. I really think that you have come down kind of hard on him.
DeleteHowever, you also own a little bit of this problem. I thought your remarks were a little harsh. If Bro. Tom was hasty in any criticism, it is also important to not be hasty in a defense of Bro. Teis. You could have done what I did and do a google search.Over at Mixcloud you can get a sense of Josh's ecumenical perspective. The whole audio is interesting but focus on the 20 minute mark where he discusses his purpose of doing Bible studies monthly with the rabbis is not to convert them but to merely love them. Now, having said that, when you listen to the whole audio, my statement about his purpose could be very misleading. I appreciated so much of what he said about —
• hearing the rabbis' insights on OT passages
• his stand on the protection of Israel
• his condemnation of Replacement Theology
• his evangelical purpose to convert the world
I can appreciate the setting Josh was in and the care he had to take in how he phrased things to be "wise as serpents and harmless as doves." Nevertheless, the way he spoke about his relationship with them could just as easily leave someone with the idea that he has no intention of trying to bring them to Christ.
In that light, Bro. Tom did not really make an extreme condemnation of Bro. Josh. In fact he tried to temper his statements when he denied thinking that Bro. Josh was establishing a trend. Surely Bro. Tom could have researched things further, but so could we all before we as pots call the kettle metal.
As I sit here munching my popcorn and licking the salted butter from my fingers, it occurs to me that understanding the underlying basis of this series might be helpful. So I'm going to read your book. Don't want to pull a Proverbs 26:17. Be right back. Relatively speaking, that is.
ReplyDelete