The
battle on the alcohol issue does not lie between those who are drunks and those
who are teetotalers. It lies between those who believe a moderate consumption
of alcohol is allowable and those who believe in total abstinence.
We have already examined several of
the primary supports used for the moderate position and found them lacking. For
instance, moderates say drinking is acceptable as long as the alcohol does not affect
you – but this is impossible; Scripture teaches that alcohol does affect you.
Moderates say that the only type of wine available in Bible times was alcoholic
– this is intellectually ignorant and spiritually lazy. Moderates say that
alcohol is spoken of as both good and bad in the Bible – I have shown you that
most of the pro-drinking passages reference grape juice and that context
reveals whether Scripture is speaking of alcoholic or non-alcoholic wine. In
addition, we have seen that the Bible overwhelmingly portrays alcohol in a
negative light, and that there are severe consequences to drinking.
In this post and the next one I want
to examine the moderates last great support: drinking alcohol is permissible
because Jesus drank and made alcohol.
He did? Really? I propose He did not
and here are my reasons.
First, there
are no scripture passages that say He did. Moderates often reference the
Last Supper when Jesus transitioned the Passover into the Lord's Supper. (Life of Christ 166) I am not afraid of the word wine but Scripture does not even use that
word in the context of the Last Supper or the Lord's Supper. For instance, Paul said in I Corinthians 11.25, After the same manner also he took the cup, when
he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye,
as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. The synoptic Gospels discuss
the Last Supper in Matthew 26, Mark 14, and Luke 22. All three of them use this
same word cup. If you want to look it up in the original language
you will find it has no alcoholic undertones. It simply means a small
container.
Not only that, but each of these
passages explicitly use the phrase fruit
of the vine. Curious, huh? It is almost like God knew people would use
Jesus as an excuse for their own drinking so He was careful to make sure Jesus'
actions could not possibly be misunderstood.
Jesus was offered wine (also referred to as vinegar) on the cross
but He turned it down. Jesus made wine (which I will discuss in the next post.)
Jesus used wine as an illustration. But not a single one of the 233 references
to wine in the Bible discusses Jesus drinking wine. He was, of course, accused
of being a winebibber but that holds no weight with me. He was accused of all
manner of things He did not do. Let me say it again just so the point does not
get missed: there is not a single reference in the Bible that says Jesus drank
wine. As I understand Scripture He did - the non-alcoholic variety - but even
that is not explicitly referenced as such. Go ahead. Look. It just is not in
there. …which means you might want to stop using it as a support.
Second, as our
High Priest Jesus actually could not drink alcohol. And the Lord spake unto Aaron, saying, Do not drink wine nor strong
drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the
congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your
generations: And that ye may put a difference between holy and unholy, and
between unclean and clean. (Leviticus 10.8-9) Never mind for the moment
that Scripture here calls alcoholic beverages unholy and unclean just notice
they were forbidden to the high priest. If the priest were to drink it would
send a mixed message to the people to whom he ministered.
This was not just an idle admonition.
A thousand years later in Isaiah's day the priests who violated this
proscription were called on it. But they
also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the
priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up
of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they
stumble in judgment. (Isaiah 28.7)
Some will be inclined to mention that
this rule was only applicable when the high priest was on duty. I tend to
agree. I also think you will agree that Jesus was never off duty. Others will
say He was not a high priest after the order of Aaron. Jesus, though a priest
after the order of Melchizedek, fulfills in Hebrews
the role of the Aaronic high priest to a T. Such is abundantly clear. Jesus
– as our High Priest – has His nature described for us in Hebrews 7.26. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless,
undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens. The
High Priest whose name is the Holy One of Israel certainly would not have
ingested a beverage Scripture names as unholy and unclean. Jesus could not have
imbibed alcohol.
"Yeah, but everybody knows Jesus
drank." Yes. And everybody also "knows" that the only kind of
wine available in His day was alcoholic.
Me? I am just not very impressed by what everybody knows…
Me? I am just not very impressed by what everybody knows…
"We have already examined several of the primary supports used for the moderate position and found them lacking."
ReplyDeleteLOL, you keep on thinking that.
Not impressed at all by your "many hours" of cut & paste....errr....Study.
"nd the Lord spake unto Aaron, saying, Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: And that ye may put a difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean. (Leviticus 10.8-9)"
ReplyDeleteWHEN they go into the tabernacle. Only then.
When the priest was on duty he was to abstain from wine and strong drink, lest he should commit excess (see v. 1), and so become disqualified for carrying out the precepts of the ceremonial Law.
DeleteBarnes, A. (1879). Notes on the Old Testament: Exodus to Ruth. (F. C. Cook & J. M. Fuller, Eds.) (p. 133). London: John Murray.
during the time of their ministration they were forbidden it.
DeleteHenry, M. (1994). Matthew Henry’s commentary on the whole Bible: complete and unabridged in one volume (p. 162). Peabody: Hendrickson.
it seems by this they were not to drink any at all when they were about to go to service, or to enter into the tabernacle in order to do it:
DeleteGill, J. (1810). An Exposition of the Old Testament (Vol. 1, p. 579). London: Mathews and Leigh.
Ok so even the commentaries that you used agree with what I said.
ReplyDeleteSo, "Second, as our High Priest Jesus actually could not drink alcohol." is false. Or at least the passage you used to back up your claim is.
"Never mind for the moment that Scripture here calls alcoholic beverages unholy and unclean just notice they were forbidden to the high priest."
ReplyDeleteThat's decidedly not what the passage is saying. It is not calling alcohol "unclean" or "unholy".
From Adam Clarke's Commentary: "That we may put difference between holy and unholy - This is a strong reason why they should drink no inebriating liquor, that their understanding being clear, and their judgment correct, they might be always able to discern between the clean and the unclean, and ever pronounce righteous judgment. Injunctions similar to this were found among the Egyptians, Carthaginians, and Greeks. Indeed, common sense itself shows that neither a drunkard nor a sot should ever be suffered to minister in holy things."
Matthew Henry's Commentary: "The reasons assigned for this prohibition. They must needs to be sober, else they could not duly discharge their office; they will be in danger of erring through wine, Isa_28:7. They must be sure to keep sober, (1.) That they might themselves be able to distinguish, in their ministrations, between that which was sacred and that which was common, and might never confound them, Lev_10:10. It concerns the Lord's ministers to put a difference between holy and unholy, both things and persons, that they may separate between the precious and the vile, Jer_15:19. (2.) That they might be able to teach the people (Lev_10:11), for that was a part of the priests' work (Deu_33:10); and those that are addicted to drunkenness are very unfit to teach people God's statutes, both because those that live after the flesh can have no experimental acquaintance with the things of the Spirit, and because such teachers pull down with one hand what they build up with the other."
Keil and Delitschz's Commentary: "Leviticus 10:8-11
And the Lord spake unto Aaron, saying, Jehovah still further commanded Aaron and his sons not to drink wine and strong drink when they entered the tabernacle to perform service there, on pain of death, as a perpetual statute for their generations (Exo_12:17), that they might be able to distinguish between the holy and common, the clean and unclean, and also to instruct the children of Israel in all the laws which God had spoken to them through Moses (וְ...וְ, Lev_10:10 and Lev_10:11, et...et, both...and also). Shecar was an intoxicating drink made of barley and dates or honey. הֹל, profanus, common, is a wider or more comprehensive notion than טָמֵא, unclean. Everything was common (profane) which was not fitted for the sanctuary, even what was allowable for daily use and enjoyment, and therefore was to be regarded as clean. The motive for laying down on this particular occasion a prohibition which was to hold good for all time, seems to lie in the event recorded in Lev_10:1, although we can hardly infer from this, as some commentators have done, that Nadab and Abihu offered the unlawful incense-offering in a state of intoxication. The connection between their act and this prohibition consisted simply in the rashness, which had lost the clear and calm reflection that is indispensable to right action."
Will, They hadn't "discovered" alcohol yet in Jesus time. Alcohol is a molecular compound so Scripture could not reference it as good or evil.
DeleteBut people did know what yeast was and the scriptures are quite explicit in their warnings about avoiding yeast and equating it with evil. Alcohol is a byproduct of fermented yeast. See my post below.
Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
ReplyDelete(Lev 10:9-10)
That ye may put difference(be able to discern) between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean.
IOW, the priests could not drink while they were performing their priestly duties because if they were drinking then they might make a grave error while performing their duties. It wasn't because wine and strong drink were unholy, it's because in a state of excess the priest might err in their duties.
Let us assume for a moment that this interpretation is correct... Does it really change anything in reference to whether Jesus drank alcohol or not?
DeleteNo, no, we are not dealing with the hypothetical here. Only with what is actually said. So let's go back to the main point, which is that the Scripture is not saying what you are claiming that it is saying. Let's not get sidetracked here. What does Scripture say? Is it saying that strong drink and wine are unholy in and of itself? Which, I must say, if it is unholy in and of itself, you are a grievous sinner if you ever give your children cough syrup. So, does this passage of Scripture say that wine and strong drink are unholy and unclean in and of itself? OR, is it saying that the use of wine in temple duties is forbidden because it's excess could cause the priest to make mistakes and fail to discern between the clean and unclean, and the holy and the unholy?
DeleteWho said anything about a hypothetical? Jesus is our High Priest. Did He or did He not drink alcohol?
DeleteNo sir, we're not going to change the subject. The subject, at this precise moment, are you sticking to your interpretation of Scripture, or do you see how it could be wrong?
DeleteDo not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
(Lev 10:9-10)
That ye may put difference(be able to discern) between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean.
IOW, the priests could not drink while they were performing their priestly duties because if they were drinking then they might make a grave error while performing their duties. It wasn't because wine and strong drink were unholy, it's because in a state of excess the priest might err in their duties.
Tom, why won't you answer Will's question? Lets face it, you miss used that passage to show Jesus didn't drink alcohol.
DeleteMaybe you should reconsider what others may know? You are being very arrogant in your assumption here.
Stop trying so hard to change the word "Wine" into something else that goes against your belief and trust the scriptures for what it says.
Yes, there are people out there that drink and are far more spiritual than you or I. Believe it or not.
Will, yes, I see how my interpretation could be wrong. I don't think it is but I think your approach is logical. I think both approaches have merit. Having said that, I don't think it changes my larger point at all. Jesus was our High Priest and the High Priest could not drink.
DeleteMr. A, don't have a clue what question of Will's I am refusing to answer. Care to enlighten me?
DeleteYou finally did after holding you to the fire.
DeleteHow many hours of study did you put into this passage? (Leviticus 10.8-9)
No, your larger point is completely changed if my interpretation(and the interpretation of quite a number of orthodox Christians) is correct. Scripture never, ever says that wine or strong drink are unclean and unholy in and of themselves. If my contention that wine and strong drink are not unclean and unholy in and of themselves, then your entire point is negated. Again, what does the Scripture say?
DeleteLev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
Lev 10:10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
IOW, "so that you can discern the difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean".
From Adam Clarke's Commentary: "That we may put difference between holy and unholy - This is a strong reason why they should drink no inebriating liquor, that their understanding being clear, and their judgment correct, they might be always able to discern between the clean and the unclean, and ever pronounce righteous judgment. Injunctions similar to this were found among the Egyptians, Carthaginians, and Greeks. Indeed, common sense itself shows that neither a drunkard nor a sot should ever be suffered to minister in holy things."
Matthew Henry's Commentary: "The reasons assigned for this prohibition. They must needs to be sober, else they could not duly discharge their office; they will be in danger of erring through wine, Isa_28:7. They must be sure to keep sober, (1.) That they might themselves be able to distinguish, in their ministrations, between that which was sacred and that which was common, and might never confound them, Lev_10:10. It concerns the Lord's ministers to put a difference between holy and unholy, both things and persons, that they may separate between the precious and the vile, Jer_15:19. (2.) That they might be able to teach the people (Lev_10:11), for that was a part of the priests' work (Deu_33:10); and those that are addicted to drunkenness are very unfit to teach people God's statutes, both because those that live after the flesh can have no experimental acquaintance with the things of the Spirit, and because such teachers pull down with one hand what they build up with the other."
Keil and Delitschz's Commentary: "Leviticus 10:8-11
And the Lord spake unto Aaron, saying, Jehovah still further commanded Aaron and his sons not to drink wine and strong drink when they entered the tabernacle to perform service there, on pain of death, as a perpetual statute for their generations (Exo_12:17), that they might be able to distinguish between the holy and common, the clean and unclean, and also to instruct the children of Israel in all the laws which God had spoken to them through Moses (וְ...וְ, Lev_10:10 and Lev_10:11, et...et, both...and also). Shecar was an intoxicating drink made of barley and dates or honey. הֹל, profanus, common, is a wider or more comprehensive notion than טָמֵא, unclean. Everything was common (profane) which was not fitted for the sanctuary, even what was allowable for daily use and enjoyment, and therefore was to be regarded as clean. The motive for laying down on this particular occasion a prohibition which was to hold good for all time, seems to lie in the event recorded in Lev_10:1, although we can hardly infer from this, as some commentators have done, that Nadab and Abihu offered the unlawful incense-offering in a state of intoxication. The connection between their act and this prohibition consisted simply in the rashness, which had lost the clear and calm reflection that is indispensable to right action."
Will,
DeleteYour example of citing cough syrup as poison in the deranged minds of Fundamentalist extremists is what led to the demise of Prohibition. There were/are so many food and medical products that utilize trace amounts of alcohol that the enforcers were over-enforcing (as governments will do) which led to the public outcry.
It was this lack of reasonable discernment on the part of government that took down what was otherwise a noble experiment.
Will Rogers just nailed it.
ReplyDeleteTom's interpretation is wrong and his conclusions are based on the wrong interpretation.
ReplyDeleteWill is reading the verse correctly and online with the historical interpretation of the passage. That is why Tom wants to change topics.
I am literally lol... I want to change subjects? How come no one wants to answer my question - Did Jesus as our High Priest drink alcohol or not?
Delete...the silence is deafening.
Jesus kept the entire Law on our behalf. He is our priest and our righteousness.
ReplyDeleteIncluding where it says to spend your tithe on wine or strong drink?
As I recall, that was if you could not get to the Temple. Don't think Jesus had that problem... Also, it was permissive, not commanded.
DeleteAlternatively, you have a Scriptural contradiction to deal with.
Where is your verse saying Jesus didn't drink wine? The passages you listed don't support your view. Priests were allowed to drink as long as they were not performing their duties in the temple.
ReplyDeleteWaiting for Tom to twist a verse to support his view that a prriest could not drink.
Like I said, the silence is deafening.
DeleteTom's silence is deafening since he can admit Will is correct.
DeleteIgnorance isn't bliss for a pastor.
Your ignorance is glaring. What's your unresearched point?
ReplyDeleteTom, the silence is deafening to deaf ears. Will already nailed you proving you are wrong. Then, you got to change the subject. Yes, Jesus drank wine. You say grape juice. Scripture all over the place says otherwise. Now of course, you spent countless hours trying to find verses that fit your theology. Let's face it, you did not study but just cut & paste this entire blog(s) of yours. You just so stubborn that everyone sees it but you. Yeah yeah, I know I know, we are not as spiritual in tuned like you. You have more experience, ya do church work, and yep, God spoke to ya I bet.
ReplyDeleteYou just can't see beyond the IFB. I know, I was there. Been there, done that. I know that game and THAT will be your sorrow someday.
..and I know, you are not impressed by what anyone else knows. What matters is what Tom knows.
Two words come to mind when I read Tom's response:
DeleteIntellectually Dishonest.
Are you saying that Jesus performed high priestly duties on a continual basis prior to and while He walked this earth? The Scriptural support (weight, if you will ;) ) is that Jesus' sacrifice is what opened the way to God. 2.5 years into his ministry we don't see Him performing high priestly duties. He performed them at a specific point in time and now ever lives and makes intercession for us.
ReplyDeleteI am saying that Jesus did not drink because He is our High Priest. He was not only our High Priest while performing specific isolated tasks. He was/is always our High Priest. Ergo, He did not drink ever. ...and Scripture supports that.
DeleteWhich verse says Jesus didn't drink? Your lack of a verse is deafening.
DeleteWhich verse says Jesus did not do cocaine?
DeleteYou know, milk is not unholy (in and of itself). But I wouldn't drink it after it was sitting out on my kitchen table for 48 hours even if I liked the taste of spoiled milk. If you Bible brainiacs want to debate whether or not Jesus ever drank fresh milk or spoiled milk or whether the Bible permits us to drink spoiled milk -- be my guest.
ReplyDeleteBut whether its beer, wine or milk -- all corrupted beverages are poisoned by the yeast that results from fermentation. Now if you want to do a study of yeast in the Bible you can find warnings both literal and symbolic of yeast as a type of sin agent. Yeast's poisonous properties contaminate from even a trace amount. This is why God commanded the Jews to use only unleavened bread (Exodus 12) and why Paul uses yeast to illustrate a point about evil (1 Cor. 5:8) or Jesus' illustration of yeast (Matthew 16:11).
Or you can click my link below to understand more about how fermentation, alcohol and yeast are related to each other.
http://foodreference.about.com/od/Ingredients_Basics/a/What-Is-Yeast.htm
Wait. I know I'm going to hear this. No, yeast itself does not make one intoxicated. But during fermentation, it is the yeast that breaks down sugars into carbon dioxide and ALCOHOL.
DeleteAlso, the Biblical word for yeast was "leaven" (but you guys probably all know that)
DeleteI love your study on alcohol. Keep up the good work. I am in Christian Recovery and come from a long line of alcoholics. Mother died from alcoholism at 58. I know firsthand the horrors of it. Most really don't understand and many are in denial about how it affects loved ones. They often minimize it.
ReplyDeleteI always wonder about people that constantly fight for their right to drink alcohol. I keep thinking if they really could take it, or leave it, they would not care one way or the other yet they seem to care deeply about doing it. Along with making sure others see it as OK.